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FOTB 2007 Interview: Papervision3D

Two of the most popular sessions at this years Flash on the beach were John Grden and Carlos Ulloa, both of the Papervision3D project. We grabbed a chance to sit down with them and talk about how the project came about and what we can expect in the future.

Interview by John Dalziel and Jens C. Brynildsen FlashMagazine: We're here at Flash on the beach with the guys from Papervision3D, John and Carlos. Nice to meet you.

John Grden: Nice to meet you to.

Carlos Ulloa: Nice to meet you to.

FlashMagazine: Have you guys met before?

John Grden: <laughs> We've been together forever...

Carlos Ulloa: We met six months ago, something like that.

FlashMagazine: How did the project begin?

Carlos Ulloa: I worked with it for a year on a personal scale and then with John on a different scale <laughs>. So it's been like a year on my own at a basic level, and then another year with other people.

FlashMagazine: It's a team project now.

Carlos Ulloa: Yes, we are at four people now on the core team, and another four helping out.

John Grden: Yeah, there is Azupko and Ricardo and Diangelo and Tink.

FlashMagazine: So how do you manage all of this, and how do you divide up the work?

Carlos Ulloa: No one has control any more. We started working on it because we all want to do it. It wasn't really something planned. Right now people are just doing what they want to do.

FlashMagazine: They do it because they enjoy it.

Carlos Ulloa: Yeah, there's is still so much to be done - it is so far from being finished <laughs>.

John Grden: You asked about how these things come together but it almost manages itself, to a certain extent. We have a core team then we have another ring of developers. There is structure there, but then there is passion. Ralph. He loves shaders - which I think's insane! <everyone laughs>

FlashMagazine: Quite a niche subject!

John Grden: He's got the freedom to do that. He's got the passion for it. When we first started showing the space view off he contacted us and said is there anything I can do for you guys? And at first I thought, you know; I don't really know you, but you've got enthusiasm and I've got something on the list - why don't you do this. So one day later it comes back - done! <everyone laughs>

Wow, that's good! So I throw him a real bone and I said we'd like to use precision materials. Why don't you see if you can get that to work with Papervision. Next day it comes back. done! <everyone laughs> Alright, you're really good! It was obvious to me, why don't we bring him on and give him something big to work on.

FlashMagazine: Do you act as PM?

John Grden: No I don't think anyone's really project managing it. We really just ask the other guy, well how is that going? The community actually is more of a project manager <everyone laughs> We get our butts kicked quite often! With shaders in 2.0 they've been waiting a long time.

Carlos Ulloa: Yeah, the community is definitely the director.

John Grden: We've learned some good lessons, like not showing something so early. Ralph showed some shader work really early on (February) so that was a mistake. We should have waited until that was somewhat ready to go. It really created a little bit of a problem. We've learned some lessons. There are people using it! <laughs>

FlashMagazine: Like changing the API?

John Grden: The public API is pretty stable. That we really haven't had to touch.And that's been good. None of that breaks from version to version and that's been really testament to the core of what you started.

Carlos Ulloa: It has been possible to make new versions that recompile and get faster performance out of each one. Even if I take something away I write messages behind <everyone laughs> because people call that function.

John Grden: Yeah, I've caught a few things from you that are really useful.

Carlos Ulloa: Yes, you never know who's using old versions of files. Everyone is learning and the code is changing every day.

John Grden: 3D has been a different experience. Of all the open source projects that I've been a part of this is has been different in that it's a very passionate subject and now it's competitive, people want to be part of it.

FlashMagazine: There's been such a demand for it in the community for so long and finally with the new player you actually have the power to deliver it.

John Grden: Yeah, it's brought a lot of people out of the woodwork.

FlashMagazine: Have you any plans to merge with another 3D engine?

Carlos Ulloa: The thing with Away3D is that they have slightly different objectives. In any case I think it would be good if there were different 3D engines for Flash.

FlashMagazine: Someone talked about merging the two?

Carlos Ulloa: Yes there is merging of features and things that they do that we need to do.

FlashMagazine: But they will still be two separate engines?

Carlos Ulloa: Yes they will be, as we are targeting speed and performance while they are targeting more render correction and things like that. It's a different approach and if you put one into the other then you'll get the worst of both. It won't be fast and it won't be as precise. So I think there is room for more 3D engines that are specialised in these things.

I would like to see a non-real-time 3D engine that you can import a scene in Collada and it would render maybe 10 frames. You know what I mean? Something that you give it a scene and it will render in different frames. With that you could do lots of light effects with layers. Something that would give the user something like a product that is pre-rendered. I think that would be awesome as well. The things that we want to do is more like games.

John Grden: Carlos was talking about the difference between 3D engines. My take was always with Papervision: we target speed. When we make a decision in the API and you wonder, why did they do that? or why do the set a certain volume value to true all the time as a default, just think speed. A reason is speed. I guess it's the people who develop it, you know. I'm a gamer, your a gamer, so that's our thought process. The guys at Away3D, they've done a wonderful job on their engine for what they are passionate about doing.

FlashMagazine: Can you tell us a bit about Adobe's reaction to PV3D? <everyone laughs>

John Grden: They've been exceptional. They've responded to the community really well. They see what we see. We told them that 3D was going somewhere. Back in beta 7 I was telling them "man, we've got to incorporate 3D, we've got to do something!" and at that time it was like, "it's really not an issue", and I was like, "dude, it's an issue! It's gonna be here". And sure enough when it finally came along it's this huge tidal wave. It took them by surprise I think, but they've been really excited. We talk to them about what we're doing so they know about course and direction and they are very, very cool nice people.

FlashMagazine: You've kind of had some unexpected support from them.

John Grden: Oh yes, the new features in the player. We said, oh yes that sounds cool. And then Carlos, within a day, had auto-MIP-mapping buried into the engine! <everyone laughs>

Carlos Ulloa: Yes, I wasn't looking forward to that. <everyone laughs>

FlashMagazine: It was just amazing, from just that one feature.

Carlos Ulloa: Yes, sometimes I think there is a lot they can do to make Flash more suited to 3D. I think they probably know that and it's in their interest to do it.

John Grden: It's going to be interesting to see how Hydra fits in for us.

FlashMagazine: Powerful. It should be good for shaders.

Carlos Ulloa: I'm sure Ralph is looking at it. We'll just put him on an island for a year. <everyone laughs>

FlashMagazine: Well now we've gathered money for your computer, we'll see if we can get an island for Ralph! <everyone laughs>

FlashMagazine: In Second Life <more laughing>

John Grden: Ralph's Shader Fund! <more laughing>

FlashMagazine: Just to wind up, do you want to tell us a little bit about version 2?

Carlos Ulloa: New things are animation and shaders. They are the two new features. We introduced interactivity in v1.5 and with regard to this version it's much faster. We wanted to leave room for the tween engines to work. Every time you see a tween engine it has one for x, one for y and one for z. We don't want to have tweenX(), tweenY() and tweenZ(). We want to be able to tween from one object to another object. So it's not only the work you see, but making things usable. Because if you don't people won't use it.

FlashMagazine: Good luck with the project guys. Thanks for taking the time to talk to us.

John Grden: Thank you.

Carlos Ulloa: Thanks.

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